I listened last night to an interesting radio programme called "Humphries in search of God". John Humphries interviewed Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, asking him to help find the God that John used to believe in as a boy but stopped believing in after seeing so many atrocities during the course of being a news correspondent. In other words, how could a loving and merciful God allow children to die horrible deaths. The Archbishop had a hard time of it. He basically said God created everything but we misuse it through exercising our free will. (You can hear it on the BBC website Listen Again facility.)
I wondered how you see this issue. Does God exist? Is he/she all powerful? Is God Love? Can you achieve anything by praying to him/her? Will he/she intervene for those who follow his commands? Did you used to believe but no longer? If you do not believe in God, what beliefs do you live by? Do share your thoughts with us.
12 comments:
…..My personal view is that as long as we continue to objectify ‘god’ and personalise ‘him/her’ in human terms and with human judgements of right and wrong, it will always be hard to perceive God as anything other than ‘uncaring’.
If god is separate from us and we from god, then yes, I can see how it would be hard hold a faith in a god that would ‘allow’ a child to die in war and atrocities to be committed.
But this might only seem ‘wrong’ from the perspective that life is finite.
If, as I believe, life is eternal, continual and unending and that we as ‘individuated’ spirits continue to experience life beyond and before physical life as we know it now, then who are we to judge whether or not a child who changed experiences was ‘harmed’ or not.
And if we are eternal spiritual beings –which I believe we are- than we cannot actually be harmed any way.
True, we can experience pain and unpleasantness –but might that not also be a learning experience? Perhaps we had chosen to experience the pain or torture as a way of understanding how another being experienced something we may have inflicted in another time/place. Possibly that ‘sacrifice’ was made in full knowledge of the learning that someone else might take from the experience?
I’m not a great philosophical thinker and I can only base my understanding on my personal experience and from other people whose experience’s resonate with mine.
From my personal experience, when a person has transitioned from a physical to a spiritual existence, they continue to be very much ‘alive’ but with a different perspective on the physical life they led, which proves to me that our judgments of what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’ are relative to our perception of events. And our perception is based on our perspective.
Change your perspective to the infinite and suddenly God, as the creative energy that is everything and in everything, becomes not only a possibility but the only explanation I can personally understand for existence.
But it is all personal and what works for me would be highly unlikely to work for the Archbishop of Canterbury, or Stuart next-door, or most others come to that.
…some people even still believe in the Devil!! How’s that for an odd perspective.
Bruv a very difficult set of questions to answer, don't really know where to start.
In the bible, God created man, he gave him a very sophisticated brain, mind and sub-conscious (part of the mind or not I am not sure!) therefore man has used these tools to develop mankind, which god (if he exists) has to accept - perhaps that was his plan - let's see what man does with these qualities? Does he survive? Does he obliterate? Is he kind, unkind to his fellow men? does he develop and use his intelligence to good effect? Is he resourcesful and respectful of the earth's resources? or not?
Therefore when you think about the atrocity's that are occurring everyday which John Humphries has experienced at very close hand
I believe that John has to take this into consideration - its like giving two children the same toy, one will throw it in the corner or destroy it as they might be jealous of it or have a lack of understanding of it, and another will sit and play for it and try to understand it and how it works for hours. Man has to decide what he wants to do with his unique qualities and this is not down to a God, this is down to man.
In my mind, man is the most powerful element in life. Just look at what man can do - kill millions of people, develop nuclear arsenals to destroy the world, destroy the natural world etc. Yes I know that strictly that is not true - of course the sea can kill and destroy, landslides and earthquakes too, but in my mind man has done these things. He has created the havoc that we are now experiencing by his disregard for nature, religion (whatever that may be), other men (and women of course) and humanity.
I do not believe that God created man, but I do believe that now (a God/belief) is in every man and that in recent years has become a very egotistical 'god' - which is why so many people aspire to looking/behaving like their favourite celebrity - they are now the gods because they are like you and I, they can be related to, unlike a god which you cannot see, touch, hear let's say. These gods are real, they are successful. Why? Because they look good? seemingly feel good? seemingly do good? (And I know that some of them are doing good things). Man wants more and more from this life and this planet and is not happy with simple pleasures.
As I get older I believe more and more that only we can change our destiny, by looking at ourselves inwardly and then outwardly. I do admit though that I have weak moments where I have prayed (not to god) but I suppose to a higher being who might be there - I have the feeling that it is to friends or family looking down on me. Because perhaps they can see the wider picture?
Personally as you know Bruv, I used to believe in God, I went to a Baptist Sunday school at the age of 8 for 2/3 years as my very good friend tagged me along and I actually really enjoyed it. In later years when I was 25 I had a very bad accident and this made me turn to God, this was strange....why did I turn to God? I do not know, for strength? for support?. It also had the same effect on Bruv and we both ended up running the Sunday School (two separate classes) in a church in Totteridge. We also both got confirmed shortly afterwards in St Albans Abbey. For me, the church, and god, was obviously something I needed to believe in to get me through the first 2/3 years of the aftermath of my accident. But then slowly, but surely, I really saw the church in a different light. Too many incidents to log here but it was not that kind to many of the people needing help in its community, or to those that were different in the eyes of the Christian church. So I stopped going.
I don't know where this is all going, these are such big questions, but I suppose I feel like I realise that we are the ones who can change ourselves, help those around us, change our destiny, in a personal and wider sense. Therefore I do not look to another (god) for that strength like I used to. I look within. I find my own strength, and I also ask others for advice and understanding - in reality those close to me, friends and family and the Dao is obviously a very good source of comfort, understanding, enlightenment and love.
Swanxx
What wonderful thoughtful posts are being added here.
There are so many aspects being raised that it is difficult to know where to start! So some random thoughts...
Swan, you remind me of our time together running Sunday School. This arose for me because of your accident. You were having serious operations to save your foot and I didnt know where to turn to help you with this. I was watching Brideshead Revisited on TV at the time which contained a lot of references to prayer. One night at Namaste's parents house I had just seen the last episode where Lord Marchmain turns back to God on his deathbed after a life of rejecting him. I went upstairs quietly to their bedroom and fell on my knees at the foot of their bed and prayed for you. I promised to go to work for the church if the operation was a success. And it was and I came to assist you with the Sunday School.
As most of you know, I follow a personal path which draws heavily on Taoist and Buddhist thinking. There is no personified God in this thinking. Rather there is the Natural Way, the Dao or Tao. We, I believe, are the products of Nature, which is an eternal force that drives the universe. There are natural laws or processes which it would be foolish for us to ignore. For example we have inbuilt needs to eat, sleep, protect ourselves and to procreate. If we try to ignore these drives, nature pretty quickly shows us the consequences; hell on earth. If we live in harmony with these drives and help others to live in harmony with these natural laws we thrive; heaven on earth.
The thought of a personified God who is a jealous God, ie if you dont believe in him you will, on the Day of Judgment, be banished to the wilderness to gnash your teeth is anathema to me. Why would a God who is Love neglect his wayward children and let them suffer?
However from a compassionate view I must agree with the Thai Buddhist abbot. He was asked why he allowed christians to attend his monastery and he replied that if they find it a comfort to believe in a God who am I to say they should be excluded. However I cannot agree with Neocon Americans using their beliefs to justify bombing Iraqi civilians.
Lastly for now, to address the death of children. A young mother whose baby had just died was distraught and went to ask the Buddha if he could help. Yes he said. Go to each house in your village and ask for a mustard seed from every house that hasnt felt the same loss of a loved one. She went from house to house and each time she was told yes we too have lost someone dear to us. She returned to the Buddha empty-handed and told him that she now understood. Death is part of life and who is to say that what follows it is not better. Perhaps death is the door through which we return home to be reunited in the ocean of eternal becoming.
Please add more of your thoughts on this because I can see by the replies so far that we are only scratching the surface here.
See you in the ocean,
Bruv
Dear Bruv,
What a very interesting topic. I wish I had heard the programme.
My take on this is rather different from the above and perhaps quite controversial. I believe in the law of karma, which Bruv alludes to when he speaks of natural laws. The law of karma says that we create our own fortunes or misfortunes by our own deeds, whether in this life or in past lives. I know it is very upsetting when children are killed but i believe that they are old souls who were only meant to be on the earth for a short while as they have already learnt the lessons to be learnt in previous lives. I agree with Swan that man's actions have upset nature with global warming and he is now reaping the whirlwind.
I believe that we are all connected and that, in our totality, we are in effect God.
To me, most organised religions are a cause of trouble as they are more concerned with furthering their own ends rather than for the good of humanity. And they dont accept that other people's beliefs are valid. Religion or money is always at the root of most wars. I believe if the whole world followed the Buddhist philosophy, not the religion, of wisdom combined with compassion for all living things then the world would be a much better place.
Love and peace to all (and I mean it)
The Namster
Namaste, I don’t read your views as at all controversial –especially in this setting.
Karma translates from the original language as ‘action’. And if all actions are accountable to ourselves (not an external personified god figure/being) them I can certainly accept that we hold a responsibility to ‘own’ our actions and that we have to appreciate the consequences of those actions.
To what extent we give away our ‘power’ to the concept of Karma is something I am not so confident in.
Many thinkers today seem to credit the ‘laws of karma’ to a lot of circumstances which they find comfortable to think is beyond their control.
A beggar on the street: is he there out of circumstance, his own karma from past ‘lives’ being played out, or perhaps he is there purely in order to give you the opportunity to demonstrate and express to the world, through action and experience, exactly who you believe yourself to be.
I find that when I look at life (for that read God, Universal energy, Nature etc) this way, every experience I come to gives me a fresh opportunity to demonstrate who I choose to be under that particular circumstance.
In the case of the homeless beggar on the street, I can choose to be compassionate, generous, loving, caring, frightened, cold, angry, to avoid eye contact or to make it. To stop and speak or walk on by.
I can apply the same choices to everything –although I must also choose to be honest here, and admit that I find it very difficult to maintain the moment that I become emotionally engaged –such as the kids shouting when I’m in a business call and I’ve already asked them to be quiet 3 times.
I have an opportunity to demonstrate patience and forbearance – but I usually end up demonstrating a complete lack of both!! :-)
This has drifted away from the topic of God a bit I know, but still vaguely linked.
Jon
More enlightening posts!
Karma is a topic worthy of a discussion forum in its own right.
To return to God for a moment. How do you feel about the idea that God is man made? If we didnt have the concept of God would we need to invent him?
When I meditate and try in a small way to find truth I often come up against the fact that many things we think about are man-made. Obviously a tree is not man made and can be said to exist outside of ourselves. This applies to everything else we can sense. But what about such concepts as God, the Devil, Spirits, Good, Bad, Right and Wrong? Do these actually truly exist or have we invented them as a means of helping us to live together, in the way we have invented laws and rules.
So perhaps none of these exist in reality but only as useful concepts. Now we can invent a useful concept such as the Law (a nod to our resident Justice of the Peace, Ciariad, here) but we wouldnt think of praying to it. So what is it about God that is unique? Is it that he exists as someone to turn to as a last resort?
I always remember my friend Rick's dad telling me that, although he was a lifelong committed Atheist, when he was in a foxhole in North Africa in the middle of a bombardment with the shells whizzing overhead he found himself praying as hard as everyone else there.
And as I have already described, when Swan was in trouble I prayed hard too although I 'do not believe in God'. So perhaps there is a deep need within us for someone to 'get us out of this mess'!
Love Bruv
My thoughts are that the personification of God is man made. We are human beings and have evolved a ‘creation’ explanation that places understandably at the top of the tree. And if we are at the top, our ‘creator’ must also be just like us –only better.
And as we are human our source must be the same but even more powerful. From here it’s a short step to Zeus and beyond.
It’s interesting though that some cultures were so ‘advanced’ that they did not see themselves as owners but guardians. That they saw the land not as something they had ownership over but something that shared with every other living thing.
That ‘God’ existed in everyone and every thing living and inanimate. Something that the latest explorations on quantum physics is now echoing in terms of the underlying and fundamental energy that seem to be at the root of all things physical – and non physical. That there was a ‘spirit’ within everything and that everything was ‘spirit’.
But it is our human tendency to personify and separate things that makes us call things different names.
Take away the concept of separation and maybe we open ourselves to the possibility that we are in fact all connected.
So have we created the concepts of God, Devil, Spirits, Good, Bad, Right and Wrong?
I think we have created the personified versions of God, created the entire “devil” thing to explain apparent aberrant and abhorrent actions, plus right and wrong, good and bad (as absolutes – not relatives) .
My personal belief is that we are all spiritual beings that exist beyond time and space (as we now describe it) and that our experience of this life and others is a function of our ‘focus of attention’ –but that’s a whole other discussion!
But that’s for me for tonight.
The fire is burning low and as the boss is out for the night, I’ve treated myself to a glass or two of wine. Time for another log and enjoy the peace and quiet of sleeping children and Discovery channel.
‘God’ bless
Jon
Good points, Jon.
I have always liked the concept of us being gurdians of the earth rather than owners, who may choose to use it ruthlessly. Perhaps you are thinking of the beliefs of Native Americans and Australian aborigines. These so-called 'primitive' peoples seem to have a much better grip on their relationship with the world than their more 'enlightened' neighbours who are currently making such an awful job of it.
At the risk of changing topic in mid-flow, I have to confess that although I bang on about global warming I dont feel I am doing enough about it. I use the recycle bins and I bought a diesel car because I'd read they are better for the environment, but that is about it. I think I would get encouragement to do more by knowing what you guys are doing to improve our planet. Can you give me some inspiration? Or are you like me and looking to someone else to save the planet?
Some green tips....
The biggest one - don't use plastic bags at the supermarket - In France you cannot get plastic bags at the checkout at any supermarket now - you buy the strong 'green' carrier bags or use your own shopping bag and take them with you each time. You just keep them in your boot and then put them in your trolley - it's no problem. Try and get your supermarket to stop selling them.
Install low energy lightbulbs.
Buy as many unpackaged and fresh foods as possible and support your local suppliers rather than supermarkets, better for the environment (less packaging) and better for health. Easier said than done as the supermarket is very convenient, but I do buy from our local market each week.
Do your washing/drying (if you have a dryer) at night when you can use cheaper energy.
In France we have good door-to-door recycling for plastic, cardboard, glass, paper but we also use the clothes, shoes, batteries, print cartridge recycling bins in our local shop car parks.
The thing which I really try and do relentlessly is to re-use things for other things. i.e. I keep all jars and they get re-used in the garage or the kitchen for bits and bobs - I also just made 12 jars of home-made chutney from a glut of my neighbour's tomatoes. My camembert boxes are painted over by the kids and become miniature wooden paintings or jewellery/treasure boxes.
It would be great to hear your tips too!
Swan x
Very impressive Swan. I will take some of these on board.
Yes, Tescos are currently pushing the 'shopping bag for life' idea. When I looked for low energy lightbulbs before I couldnt find any on the shelves. But Ive seen them in the Guardian.
I am very good with leftovers. I can make umpteen dishes out of a chicken and leave Sophie to polish off the bones. I am just using up potatoes, leeks and celery as I write to make a nice warming soup.
I won't bother with the saving jars one though. I did that before and guess what I had at the end of the year - a load of old jars!
I read somewhere that if we all cut out one flight a year it would do more good that all the domestic schemes put together, dont know how true that is.
Must go as Ive got to get Sophie started on painting my old cheese boxes :)
Bruv I think subjects like this 'a big question' would be very good for your new spiritual group. I think this is such an interesting debate, but to be honest I don't know where to start on this one, but with direct interaction you could have several sessions just debating this one point and as you say other other areas such as Karma.
Good luck with the first session of the group and let us all know how it goes.
Best wishes
Swanx
Yes Swan I had been thinking along the same lines myself. There are some big issues that each deserve a forum in their own right. Certainly this God one would be a good one to kick off local discussion as we can draw upon the thoughts already expressed by 'Daoists' like yourself who won't be able to attend the meeting.
Other issues I would like to raise are, in no particular order:
- Karma
- Do we have an inbuilt need for Spirituality?
- Life after death
- Past lives / deja vu
- What moral code to live by
- Can we truly forgive?
I am sure all you guys can add many topics to this list. What would you want to discuss?
Love Bruvx
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